00:40 <VoxPVoxD> Willie returns the TrackCheck somewhat sheepishly the next day. "I didn't learn as much as I'd hoped. Only that it seems to be the same genre of thing as this very place, in the eyes of the experts I consulted." 00:51 <dammitwho> Richard: "Yeah, that would make sense. Fortunately, I don't think that what we've all decided somehow to call the greybox is opinionated like the TrackCheck." 00:53 <VoxPVoxD> Willie brought a light lunch for her and Richard - pav bhaji and buttery homemade rolls. "What else would you call it?" 00:54 <dammitwho> "Oh, I'm not quarrelling with the name. Just interesting how sometimes things converge quickly without anyone openly deciding them." 00:57 <VoxPVoxD> Willie: "Perhaps it's more opinionated than we realise." 00:58 <dammitwho> "Could be. We are basically living in a mechanical tumor, as near as I can tell. Or rather, I am." 00:59 <VoxPVoxD> Willie: "How do you know it's a tumor and not a vital organ?" 00:59 <VoxPVoxD> "Seems almost like a political distinction when you can't see the whole body, as it were." 01:01 <dammitwho> "Mmmm... you're right." That observation seems to resonate with him more than one might expect. 01:03 <VoxPVoxD> "Anyway! I brought lunch to the Greybox because I know you're keen to do 1-on-1 meetings. D'you like pav bhaji?" 01:03 <VoxPVoxD> "I hope so; I brought quite a bit." 01:07 <dammitwho> "Oh yes, thanks very much." 01:08 <dammitwho> "I mainly want to talk about the Lucifuge, of course - not necessarily your personal history, but capital-l Lore. When the great and good say 'vade retro, satanas', what satanas are they talking about and what can it do?" 01:15 <VoxPVoxD> Willie: "There are various schools of thought. People come to Milan from all over the world, east and west, and their experiences are rooted in their own cultural traditions. The Lucifuge herself obviously favours a Christian, Catholic interpretation of the Accuser and his host, but that's just an historical contingency. You hear about indigenous American skinwalkers, the man-eating rakshasa 01:15 <VoxPVoxD> of the subcontinent, and so forth... there's no reason to assign primacy to one or the other, and we draw useable lore from virtually every religious tradition." 01:15 <VoxPVoxD> "Hell is a broad church; our Father's house has many rooms." 01:16 <VoxPVoxD> "For me it's always been animals." 01:16 <dammitwho> Richard nods, taking notes. "Animals?" 01:20 <VoxPVoxD> Willie works on a bhaji'd pav for a bit before responding. "The instinct is to compare them to dogs. The hounds of Hell, you know. But that's not right. They're low-to-the-ground, typically moreso than the size and shape of their bodies would suggest. Four legs, a tail. But they cold have paws, hooves, talons. Their tails could swish, sting, clutch, burn." 01:20 <VoxPVoxD> "Great variation in skulls. A dog, a cat, a hippopotamus, an ibex, a whale. I've seen sketches... transcribed them from dream journals..." 01:21 <VoxPVoxD> "Flesh pulled taut, like butter scraped over too much bread. The color of rust and dried blood staining old leather." 01:22 <dammitwho> "Extraordinary," he mutters, still writing. "I don't suppose you still have any of those sketches?" 01:23 <VoxPVoxD> Willie: "Not on me. I've had the same dream journal since I was 16. I could get you some pictures or scans." 01:25 <dammitwho> "That would be great. So Milan works with a kind of daemonic syncretism? Common features among the hellborne?" 01:27 <VoxPVoxD> Willie: "Yes. There's more unity in behaviour than aesthetics. Whether it's imps and a burning throne, back-handed temptresses, conspiratorial voices in the shadows... the urge is to deceive, betray, harm." 01:29 <VoxPVoxD> "Knowing as we do the profound temptation to do evil and avoid good, the Lucifuge takes a collegial attitude towards the night-Earth." 01:30 <VoxPVoxD> "We know firsthand that one's path does not lead inevitably into darkness. It invites a certain leniency, unless we encounter the unchecked and rampantly indulgent infernal." 01:31 <VoxPVoxD> "The blood, Milan says, surges every seven generations." 01:31 <dammitwho> "Glad to hear it," he grins, "since I remember you remarking on a whiff of brimstone about me." 01:32 <VoxPVoxD> Willie: "This is a fresh kind of Hell to me. It puts me in mind of convergent evolution. Carcinisation." 01:35 <dammitwho> "I'm not familiar with that term." 01:36 <VoxPVoxD> Willie: "It's an evolutionary pattern you see in crustaceans. Many diverging genetic branches independently reinvented the crab." 01:37 <VoxPVoxD> "As if it were a favourite formula of the blind watchmaker, or the inevitable response to certain systemic pressures." 01:41 <dammitwho> "So the world naturally coalesces a dark tempter figure?" 01:43 <VoxPVoxD> Willie: "There must be an adversary. And they must remain the adversary." 01:44 <VoxPVoxD> "And an adversary has certain needs, needs met by certain skills and mindsets. An appetite for conversion and rebellion. A deep understanding of truth and its negative. A certain equanimity with the mean, the weak, the needy." 01:45 <dammitwho> "Redeeming the despised and wreaking vengeance in the name of the burned and the tortured." 01:46 <VoxPVoxD> Willie: "I certainly hope so." 01:46 <VoxPVoxD> "The alternative is the obverse." 01:48 <VoxPVoxD> "Really, the essence of the demonic, as I understand it, is binaries. God and Devil, angel and demon, defender and accuser. Lucifuge, etymologically, is that which pulls apart light and darkness." 01:49 <VoxPVoxD> "To set apart the evil that walks among us. That hides within us." 01:50 <VoxPVoxD> "Fundamentally opposed, but inextricably linked." 01:50 <dammitwho> "Or 'that which flees from light'." He points out, having gone to a perfectly acceptable university. 01:50 <VoxPVoxD> Willie: "Or flees from the Lightbringer, depending on how abbreviatively you choose to read it." 01:51 <VoxPVoxD> "In all cases, the implied difference is irreconcilable." 01:51 <VoxPVoxD> "But here we may have reached the boundary between two linked opposites. Where metaphysics ends and ideology begins." 01:52 <VoxPVoxD> "Are they irreconcilable? It's easy to say so. But a lot of the work we do makes very little sense if it is." 01:52 <dammitwho> "It does seem to come back to that, doesn't it? I was reminded of it when you talked about the difference between a tumor and a vital organ." 01:53 <VoxPVoxD> Willie: "Suppose we are sitting, right now, in the body of God." 01:53 <dammitwho> "Just as interesting to suggest that when we leave this room, and re-enter what we are pleased to call the ordinary universe, we are outside of God." 01:54 <VoxPVoxD> Willie: "Yes! But we've wandered afield a bit." 01:56 <VoxPVoxD> "What did you think of the meeting?" 01:57 <dammitwho> "Some good suggestions for next job. It didn't go as briskly as I'd like," he admits. "We have some strong personalities." 01:58 <VoxPVoxD> Willie: "Yes, I wanted to offer some feedback on that, as well as an apology. One of those personalities is mine, of course." 01:59 <VoxPVoxD> "But don't be afraid to take a firmer hand. The death of every meeting is a lack of focus. As a manager you have two big tools at your disposal to control that: one is to make the meeting as small as possible. And the other is to ride it hard." 02:00 <VoxPVoxD> "Don't be afraid to be curt. You cannot make an omelet without having a frank and direct discussion with the eggs." 02:01 <VoxPVoxD> "In the end, people will be grateful for clarity, and for shorter meetings." 02:02 <dammitwho> Richard nods. "Well, that's a sticking point, isn't it? I'm an administrator, but not your administrator. I can't give you orders as to an employee and I'm not, thank god, in charge of your continuing to have a situation." 02:03 <dammitwho> "I am at best first among equals at a meeting table, and not to be vulgar but you are all paid more than I am for a more dangerous and critical job. Not one I want, but still." 02:04 <VoxPVoxD> Willie: "If you're going to lead the meetings then you have to lead the meetings. Primus inter pares is still primus before he is pares." 02:04 <VoxPVoxD> "If you'd be more comfortable, I could do it. This is somewhat my field." 02:05 <dammitwho> "No, no. I have to step up here. You'd just be getting your information from me anyway, and more layers isn't the answer. Thank you for the advice, though." 02:07 <VoxPVoxD> Willie smiles. "Happy to help. I quite agree; you are irreplaceable." 02:08 <dammitwho> "Oh dear," Richard chuckles. "The graveyards are full with that kind of man." 02:09 <VoxPVoxD> Willie: "The replaceable as well. Graveyards are quite ecumenical. That's why my Father's has so many rooms." 02:09 <VoxPVoxD> Willie: "Do you have friends in the area? Family?" 02:14 <dammitwho> He shakes his head. "Not in Manchester. Parents up north, friends all down south. It's the one downside, really." 02:20 <VoxPVoxD> Sotto voce: "Want to trade families?" 02:25 <dammitwho> Ways to say what boils down to 'actually, I love my parents' without being inexcusably rude flash through Richard's head, and ultimately he just says "Ha! Do they cook as good a pav bhaji?" 02:26 <VoxPVoxD> Do you really love someone if you don't also hate them? 02:26 <dammitwho> Yes? 02:26 <VoxPVoxD> What Willie presupposes, supposes, and postsupposes is,